@CritterFritter You go 0 miners so you’re not a credible source. Sorry.

@DepinMasterMind Sorry you can’t handle reality bud

@CritterFritter This is a mining community for people with miners. Rockies are not welcome here 😂.

@DepinMasterMind ignore them. Since we launched, we’ve had coordinated attacks on the project. 3 negative reviews on Moken within 5 mins 🤔 They then started fomo’ing out Discord channel. Our community told them to F off.

Somebody with lots of money appears to be sweating. Who might it be?

@Kitsune as you say in your recent post, the state of DePIN is in a bad place. Projects sold hardware to people, without any customers, and VCs piled millions into garbage.

4DSKY was the first flight tracking DePIN project in the world, but we focused on customers before scaling the supply side. Apparently that makes us scammers 🤷

@CritterFritteris one of about 5 brand new accounts on Moken who has been FOMO’ing our project since the start. Zero miners, no posts, just brand new accounts who decided they wanted to talk sh*t about us.

Follow the money. They know nothing about the project. Just protecting their bags

@james_4dsky nah I ain’t paid I wish I was. The project is just redundant garbage not needed. Better use of resources

@Donm3ga When you compare the costs dollar for dollar, An average-quality Bitcoin miner typically runs around $3,000 for the device, and to get an effective, competitive unit you’re realistically looking at $8,000–$10,000. On top of that to start seeing profit vs. The Pooled Mining Farms that are out there already. the annual electrical cost to operate a BTC miner averages roughly $500.

a Jetvision sensor costs about $6 per year to operate. So not only do you save substantially lower cost up front, but year over year you’re not sinking money into a power-hungry, highly speculative investment.

With that in mind, estimating $400 for a license on a top-tier mining/aviation sensor becomes laughable in comparison

@Donm3ga let me explain this more clearly how pricing is structured…

The 450 EUR ($530) price is for a single antenna unit at cost price. Jetvision sell the units for cheap, to feed and benefit their own network. Without any rewards, the network has grown slowly. 4DSKY is changing that by giving back to the contributors of the network

The retail price of $985 unlocks the device, pays for marketing, sales, distribution, and support. Trust me, but the majority of hardware devices have margins between 50-70%. This sensor actually has comparatively low margins, and is priced as competitively as possible.

Whilst I accept it's still not cheap, people need to weigh up actual ROI. Do you want a cheap way to pump n dump a token, or do you want a high quality device that can earn you a healthy ROI year on year.

Jetvision sensors are already used by Flightradar24 and Flightaware today. Hardware matters, and revenue is key

@james_4dsky ROI on what? There is no token price. This is a pure gamble.

@james_4dsky Does the $985 include the commercial license?

@hydromagnet It does, yes

@elontusk007 correct. There is no guarantee of ROI, but that is the same for most early stage projects. What you have to decide is whether you think the data the hardware you are buying has long term value, whether the market is large, and whether the team are suited to the industry they are selling into. I would say that we tick all 3 of them boxes, but you need to make that judgement for yourself.

If you want to wait until the token is launched, that is perfectly understandable. Those that commit early will earn greater rewards, so it depends on whether you want to invest at a stage where there is higher upside potential, or at a stage that carries lower risk. Hope that helps you make a decision :)

@james_4dsky Then don’t try to sell it on ROI:
“Whilst I accept it's still not cheap, people need to weigh up actual ROI. Do you want a cheap way to pump n dump a token, or do you want a high quality device that can earn you a healthy ROI year on year.”

@elontusk007 I disagree. ROI is important. 4DSKY has generated more revenue per node than any other DePIN project out there. If you only want to invest in post-ICO projects with a token, that's fine.

Just because 4DSKY doesn't have a token yet, doesn’t mean it doesn't have great potential. And similarly, if a project does have a token, it doesn't mean its a good investment.

We’re looking for serious people, who want to install sensors to power the next generation of ATC. Research our founders, our customers, and our partners.

Worst case, you have a professional flight tracker that airports will buy off you. Try and do that with any other miner, and you will be lucky

@james_4dsky If it doesn’t pay, there is NO ROI. You can’t tell people to look at the ROI when there isn’t any revenue for the station owners. 4DSKY hasn’t generated any revenue for the station owners. “4DSKY has generated more revenue per node than any other DePIN project out there.” is somewhere between dishonest spin and outright lying. I don’t appreciate either. Seems the only research needed is right here in the sales pitch you’re trying to get us to swallow.

“Potential” is not ROI.
Your company’s revenue is not ROI.
ROI only can be seen when you start paying us with a token with convertible value to fiat. You don’t have that, so stop telling us to look at a null sum.

@elontusk007 appreciate you taking the time to respond, but earnings and ROI are not the same thing. If you are looking for a miner that will generate you predictable income on day 1, then this isn't the right project for you.

@james_4dsky ROI… What do you think the “R” is? Return…
You can’t have any returns without rewards/earnings/revenue/etc. No one buying your station can use ROI for anything because it’s zero. You trying to convince people to “weigh up actual ROI” is meaningless sales pitch because there is NO ROI with rewards.

Please tell us, what is the ROI of your station aka, in the common parlance, the breakeven time? I’ll wait…
I’ll give you a hint: 0 × 0 = 0

You’re asking people to calculate the amount of bread they’re going to have when they don’t have any idea how much flour they will have.

@elontusk007Venture Capital invests almost exclusively in projects with 100x ROI potential. They don’t expect any “return” immediately.

They instead look at the business, and assess the chances of being able to make a return. They look at fundamentals of the project, such as team, product, and traction.

Hopefully this makes my point clear

@james_4dsky You keep dodging what you said:
“Whilst I accept it's still not cheap, people need to weigh up actual ROI. Do you want a cheap way to pump n dump a token, or do you want a high quality device that can earn you a healthy ROI year on year..”

You told people to base the decision to spend a grand on a station on “ROI” and “earnings”, but there is ZERO data on what those earnings or ROI would be. Venture Capitol doesn’t invest with zero data and a “trust me bro” from the salesman.

Weight up actual ROI? Do tell, weight it based on what?
“… device that can earn you a healthy ROI year on year.“ Again, based on what? What data is that claim based on? Hopes and dreams? Justify the price your charging.

Stop trying to hand wave this away claiming that we want immediate returns. No one said that.

The point is you cannot justify the price by telling people to base that decision on “ROI” when there is NO data to get any sort of ROI or breakeven estimate.

@elontusk007 yeh, my use of the term “actual ROI” was somewhat confusing, so apologies for that. What I meant was that the data that the Jetvision sensor generates has already proven its value in the market with paying customers. This increases the chances of making a healthy ROI, compared to a project without this validation.

In terms of “trust me bro”, I don’t think that is fair:

1. The Jetvision sensor is MLAT enabled and customers including FR24, FlightAware, airports, and defence companies

2. We have already generated $650K in revenue on small scale trials with customers

3. Our founders are experts in the aviation domain, including both ATC and drone detect and avoid technology

4. We have spent 5 years working closely with customers such as Thales, NATO, Cirium and Raytheon

5. We’re being supported by the UK airspace regulator, the CAA, and are in a regulatory sandbox

ROI is dependant on the project being successful and generating repeatable revenues. It wouldn’t be fair for me to cast judgement on other projects, but I am confident when I say that I believe we are a top 10% project when it comes to market validation.

Hence why I think an expensive device with lots of market validation is more likely to provide a better ROI than a cheap device with little to no market validation. If you have any questions, please feel free to reach out, and I can send you more information. Our customer projects are all on our website if you want to review them: https://4dsky.com/blog

@bedwardsnet Wingbits’ capabilities are not even close to Neuron’s. Wingbits has very limited range, they cannot high demand tasks like high-altitude or long-range aircraft tracking. More importantly wingbits has a much higher latency and, well its “designed” for clustered areas with drones, it has roughly 3x the time between pings. Which means longer period on time where drones are “flying blind.”

Wingbits says the would like high-end client like drone-delivery based companies, But what company would select a lower-grade sensor with restricted and weaker performance?

They might have a token, which has helped them expand, but any project can shill a token, real usecase adoption is going to take real utility, and you can shill bad metrics.

@Tanis_P All good if you prefer 4dsky over Wingbits, but your statements incorrectly frame Wingbits for both capabilities of current hardware and current project intent. Both projects can co-exist and thrive without doing this.

@acci this is true. 4DSKY is a community and product that is built by aviation experts to solve the problems that currently exist in aviation.

Its built on the fully open-source Neuron edge protocol, and additional sensors will be added. 4DSKY uses Jetvision sensors, but we can use Wingbits sensors too.

In fact some of our community are currently connecting their Wingbits sensors to 4DSKY to derisk their investment, and we’re considering giving these DIY miners some points for sharing data.

But ultimately, Neuron + 4DSKY is an architecture upgrade. We’re not just a centralised SaaS network with a token.

@Brunator thats the issue when you shill a basisless token and pray you can figure out the tech side in time. Neuron has been building their tech for 4 years already and hasn't shilled an empty token, because it has the right values.

@Carigo Actually when you look at the quality of the hardware, it’s 100x better than the wingbits hardware. The wingbits models break down constantly due to poor design and cheap production. A simple thunderstorm can fry your unit in seconds requiring you to get a whole new unit through support and put it on your roof. You can, of course, get a lightning arrestor from HD but you gotta go back on the roof to install it. Wingbits can only do ADB-S tracking

The 4Dsky models won’t break down from thunderstorms, they are higher quality build from a manufacturer with proven aviation experience. They can do ADB-S, FLARM and UAT tracking which is the type of data required by government/airport clients. ADB-S is only really valuable for hobbyist clients.

@VEMP if I understand you correctly, if you are banking entirely on today's return and don't care if what you are mining has a future - wingbits.

But 4Dsky and Neuron has been building their tech and actual relationships with usecases for the last 4 year without shilling some void of true value token.

So if you are looking for a project that is lined up to have Real Utility and an Actual Long Term Future not just a quick flip/cash dump, Then 4Dsky/Neuron

@VEMP correct, it's a more expensive unit, and we don’t have dual mining. But it's what our customers have asked for. So you have to weigh up whether you want a hobby or a business.

Selling unsecured ADS-B data is difficult, because you can get it for free from Opensky network already. Its a hard sell, especially when you are joining a market with 12 already established competitors.

Secure high precision ADSB, MLAT, UAT, and Flarm data, delivered via a low latency, high availability edge network, is only possible via 4DSKY. Zero competitors, clear USP.

4DSKY isn't just a flight tracking network. It's an infrastructure upgrade. This is why we were awarded a CAA contract for $450K

@james_4dsky As I mentioned earlier, my comparison wasn’t meant to be technical, we are in fact considering purchasing some units.

My concern is more about how the market might perceive the overall package: the project, the pricing, the delayed ROI, and so on. I’ve seen great products fail simply because of small misalignments in marketing or value proposition. And I don’t want 4DSky to fail, I want it to succeed, as the success of a depin project is a success for the community.

In the short term, my sentiment is somewhat bearish because, although the product may genuinely be stronger than Wingbits, there are a few issues:

• The price is higher, and the ROI timeline appears further out compared to WB.

• Helium Deploy currently sells 78 different DePIN products (which is overwhelming…), making it hard for any single product to stand out.

• Wingbits is, to some extent, backed by Geodnet, which has been distributing sellable tokens for at least two years. This gives WB a reputational advantage and a sense of stability within the DePIN space, even if is not their reputation but the reputation of Geodnet.

I genuinely believe that with a few adjustments, 4DSky could be perceived as a game changer and positively shift the sentiment of not only the 31% of voters but the broader community as well. In my opinion, having a superior product isn’t enough on its own; additional elements are needed; such as a clearer timeline, an idea of the contract sizes you aim to secure by each year-end, and a better sense of the business scale we’re contributing to.

From my perspective, Wingbits hasn’t shared this type of information with its miners. Perhaps this is exactly where 4DSky could differentiate itself: by being more transparent and communicative.

Please know that my intention is absolutely not to undermine the project, quite the opposite indeed. I hope these points can help spark a constructive discussion and close this gap. 😊

@Massacre the quality of the device is much better for 4Dsky, so many issues with the wingbits devices. They keep getting fried.

@Brunator idk about 4dsky but i got 5 diy wingbits and i am not complaining, got a lot of wings points/tokens and untill now i aint got a problem with the devices or anything getting fried

@Brunator 4dsky specifically say to ground the antenna to prevent static damage in the instructions and not responsible for damage

@bodybybody ADS-B only accounts for about 50% of the aircraft flying at any given point in time. Its also not secure. To track all aircraft securely, which is what the vast majority of customers need, you need 2 antennas and MLAT.

Geodnet is a great project though, so cannot fault it.

@TheDePINDOC quality of the 4Dsky device and it can track more aircrafts: ADB-S, FLARM and UAT.

@Brunator yeah but I’m still confused as to why I’d want it, with WingBits I can see what the miner is doing at any time using the tools, with 4Dsky I’m being told you can’t see any of the data and the price is double

@TheDePINDOC who told you that? It's factually incorrect. See attached data that comes from the device. You can also see a video of our app here:

https://youtu.be/zde7o1s3Lr4?si=TLKN1zF09JDa8JGl

@james_4dsky even with that data (of which I can get on the graphs1090 with WingBits)

I’ll wait for the price to come down, if I can get one cheap I’ll do it but I’m not paying a 1k USD for something I can get a dual miner for, seems counter logical and struggling to see why it’s necessary

@TheDePINDOC let's see what the customers think. Revenue is key, and we are already at $650K

The Jetvision sensor is designed for professionals, used by airports and the military, and offers a clear USP.

ADS-B SDR devices generally give their data away for free. OpenSky Network is a great open-source project for SDR dongles.

4DSKY is based on an FPGA design which is what FlightRadar24 and FlightAware use

@eye4detail Followup after reviewing the tech. I like the MLAT format, but it’s considered secondary to ADS-B. I’m in USA and this is a secondary system with very little use. It seems the UK govt issued a grant to 4dsky and MLAT may be a more valuable system in Europe under ICAO, still secondary. It does make sense to place one of these next to an ADS-B system as a backup. But again the future would need investments from Government or agencies that use and incorporate this data. MLAT data relies on stations at least 2KM apart to triangulate signal data. The two antennas included need to be mounted at lease 25 cm apart. 4sky didn’t explain well the placement of stations required for triangulation just that no hexes are required and they mention the more stations installed will reduce earnings, dilution. I would think that more stations closer together but greater than 2 km would improve rewards and accuracy, not reduce.

There needs to be milestone charts with their progress. The price for a unit is expensive. The plus over ads-b, it should pickup local traffic over an antenna and signal gain shouldn’t be an issue that causes ads-b systems to drop out on specific aircraft. It may pickup aircraft not broadcasting ads-b but not sure about this. The aircraft has to broadcast something on the antenna frequency. other than the UK govt grant what are the other revenue generating resources? Other govt. grants? Customers public or private?

@eye4detail thanks for the long post, but maybe I can help quash some myths:

1) MLAT is a requirement from our customers. They said they need it

2) ADS-B is not secure by itself without MLAT.

3) Can you name a top flight tracking network which doesn't have MLAT? Flightradar24 - MLAT, FlightAware - MLAT, Planefinder - MLAT

4) 4DSKY is an edge network. This is the core USP for customers

5) Because of it's edge capabilities, 4DSKY beats other flight tracking networks on all metrics:

• Lowest data latency

• Highest availability

• Open-source

• No single point of failure

• Raw mode-S data availability

• Actually decentralised

6) We already have paying customers, and we’re scaling revenue pre TGE

7) Founders are both experts in aviation

8) Our board advisor exited to Cirium aviation analytics company for $250M, and his role was to sell flight data to customers and tailor the product

9) Currently undertaking a contract for the CAA, and an airport

10) Our UI is 3D - most important point! 😎

Our biggest competitors are Flightradar24, FlightAware, and Planefinder, and we’re focused on signal rather than noise. Hype sells, but its only short term ✌️

@battlestarsyracuse+6d0332ee this is why software assurance and MLAT is neccesary in these environments. We’ve been working with the regulator for 3 years on this. 4DSKY makes things safer. ADS-B only devices create security risks

@k9nmb655 I’m not sure you’re looking at the right token, they haven’t launched their token yet.

@k9nmb655 correct, we’re aiming to launch the token in summer 2026 with revenue already being generated on launch. We’re a traction first DePIN

@Bitbeard it's actually very cheap for a professional sensors. For example:

uAvionix Pingstation 3 - $2800

You can buy cheap ADS-B only sensors on Amazon for $40:

https://amzn.eu/d/5CuwivF

4DSKY isn’t building a hobby network